Who determines that which among any two warring parties has the prerogative to first strike and use force of whatever kind against the other. Isn't the one who first uses force (of any kind) against the other already guilty of using disproportionate force. Or is he not?
And on what grounds can anyone offer advise to the affected party to retaliate only with a force similar and proportionate to the one it was inflicted with. Isn't that plain bankruptcy of reasoning and biased judgment?
I came across an article "Defending A people" by Alan M. Dershowitz that appeared in the editorial page of Hindustan Times, August 4, 2006. Alan Dershowitz is a Professor of Law at Harvard and the author of Preemption: A Knife that Cuts Both Ways. I am putting some excerpts that I find quiet insightful from his article.
The Hezbollah and Hamas’ provocations against Israel once again demonstrate how terrorists exploit human rights and the media in their attacks on democracies. By hiding behind their own civilians, the Islamic radicals issue a challenge to democracies: either violate your own morality by coming after us and inevitably killing some innocent civilians, or maintain your morality and leave us with a free hand to target your innocent civilians (emphasis mine). This challenge presents democracies such as Israel with a lose-lose option, and the terrorists with a win-win option.
...the international community, the media and the so-called ‘human rights’ organizations (emphasis mine) could stop falling for this terrorist gambit and acknowledge that they are being used to promote the terrorist agenda. Whenever a democracy is presented with the lose-lose option and chooses to defend its citizens by going after terrorists who are hiding among civilians, this trio of predictable condemners can be counted on by the terrorists to accuse the democracy of ‘over-reaction’, ‘disproportionality’ and ‘violations of human rights’. In doing so they play right into the terrorists’ hands...
Israel has every self-interest in minimising civilian casualties, whereas the terrorists have every self-interest in maximising the same — on both sides. Israel should not be condemned for doing what every democracy would and should do: taking every reasonable military step to stop the terrorists from killing their innocent civilians.
Anand,
ReplyDeleteI Strongly beleive Israel's Right to exist and right to defend itself. I strongly Hezbollah and Hamas has started the current conflict and are using Lebanese civilians as human shields--firing rockets using them as cover. That doesnt justify Israel bombing and killing the civilians including Children & Hospitals. Most of the casuallites are Lebanese civilians nor Hezbollah militants. Thats what Hezbollah expects Israel to do. Israelees have this time stupidly fallen into their trap. Therefore I disagree with your view and I convinced that Israel is using "disproportionate use of force" aping the Americans "Shock & Awe".
That has to be condemned
There are some evangelicals including Lenanese Evangelical who are convinced of this;
Please read "The body of Christ in Lebanon by Jim Wallis" at http://go.sojo.net/nd.tcl?r=ddANvjp1lXvC&n=3521023
also
'Who Is My Neighbor' in the Lebanon-Israel Conflict by Martin Accad at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/130/22.0.html
Similar aricles
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ctmag/special/lebanon.html
Look at figures they speak clearly on the what really is truth or fallacy.
ReplyDelete900 Lebanese deaths (only 80 are hezbollah militants), almost 300 are below the age of 12. 3000 injured mostly civilians and 1 million people displaced.
Israelee Casualties: 160 killed mostly military. 39 civilians killed by rocket firing by Hezbollah
This clearly amount to 'disproportionate use of force'
*figures are based Reuters quoting the Lebanese PM & Israelee sources
please read
ReplyDeleteReflections on the Lebanon I know
by Deanna Murshed,
(integrated marketing manager at Sojourners, is a graduate of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School's faith and culture program and a recently-converted The Flaming Lips fanatic.)
at http://go.sojo.net/nd.tcl?r=W1ANvjp1pz40&n=3522607
Billy, sorry for posting my reply to your comment so late. I want to clarify what I feel you have presumed in my posting. I am not at all taking any Christian stand leave alone an evangelical one. I am taking a very broad position appealing to the same humanist reasoning that Hezebollah and its supporters are appealing to.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I know that Christian position is the answer and solution to this. But in a matter involving people of three different faiths (a Christian commenting on Jews and Arab Muslims) I intended to take a position that anyone and everyone is able to identify with and not only Christians.
Now to your argument that Israel has fallen into Hezebollah's trap and is killing more civilians and that being the proof of it using disproportionate force. My reply still remains the same that who decides which party should use how much force, and when.
Yes, from day one Israeli missiles have been killing more civilians than Hezebollah's, and I never had any doubt about it. Just because Hezebollah’s attacks got less victims does not mean they are morally on a higher ground. In fact it is Hezebollah who is firing much more rockets at Israeli civilians than the number of missiles Israel is firing. Do the rules of engagement not apply to Hezbollah at all? Hezbollah rockets fired at Israel do not even make a pretence of targeting anyone else but civilians. The Hezbollah has been doing this for some time, as its rockets are too inaccurate to do anything else. Israel is not a willing — or for that matter, the only — sinner.
“Discussions around the world about the conflict have taken on an abstract air — even that of a sporting battle in which it has become de rigeur to cheer the underdog for the simple reason that it is the underdog. As in all other conflicts, distinction between who is wrong and who is more wrong blurs as violence continues...” (HT Delhi Editorial on August 9, 2006)
Does Victim-hood gives the outfit the moral high ground of retaliation... Hezbollah, backed by sensibilities championing the ‘underdog’, cannot be made exempt from the immorality of targeting and killing civilians.
And what makes you conclude that Israel has "fallen" into Hezebollah's trap and responding this way. I don’t think it is an impulsive response to yet another provocation. I understand that Israel has taken this step after much deliberation and thought with complete understanding of what it is doing. They have decided to respond this way only, i.e to attack the militant even if civilians are killed in the bargain.
Just to give credence to my argument I want to quote this, “After three weeks of fighting, the Israelis had killed over a thousand Lebanese civilians and wounded thrice as many. Hezbollah had killed 96 Israelis and injured 700. But two features make this conflict unique. This is the first time that a State has deliberately declared war on a civilian population to force compliance by its government.” (“LOOKING AHEAD- Defense Mechanism” by Prem Shanker Jha in HT Delhi editorial page August 11, 2006)
Also remember, before each missile attack at any civilian area, Israel is dropping leaflets and warning the inhabitants of that area to move out, so that it can avoid civilian causalities. If people still decide to stay put, they are COMMITTING PLAIN SUICIDE or they are BACKING Hezebollah.
I agree with anand on this issue. How many deaths would have made it "proportionate" ? two (for the two Israelis taken as prisoners) ?
ReplyDeleteBut you kind of contradict yourself with your mention of Israel dropping the leaflets as if this was a kind of justification. Many a times the attacks took place within hours after such a leaflet is received (if at all they get such a message). And mind you they have shelled all the roads and bridges in the first wave so how are people supposed to move out? How would you feel if you had got such a leaflet while you are in your home with your wife,kids and elderly mother who can barely walk...?
This(war) is sheer madness! nobody cares on either side who gets hurt. What impact the war is going to have on their lives is not even comprehended by either counterpart.This childish behaviour is getting on my nerves, silly tit for tat behaviour still seems to be the norm for these self proclaimed 'civil' societies. The photo i saw today(16-7-2006) in The Hindu about that Lebanese mother and her child, made me realise that whatever the reason , neither party actually gave a thought as to what they were doing to their people - causing disheartenment , spreaing hatred,disssent.Its at times like this that the human spirit prevails .They-the people are the ones who can teach a thing or two to their leaders.Though the verse LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF is not there in the Torah ,its not an excuse .
ReplyDeleteWhen you kill, a part of your soul dies. The more you kill the more your soul is eaten into and your being is so consumed with hatred that you change for the worse. This rampant killing is occuring in not only Beirut but the whole of Lebanon. This was a place that was once called the Paris of the middle east. now it is Hell on earth. Why? All because a terrorist organisation wants a little bit of limelight and Israel wants to strengthen its hold on Lebanon. The U.N is corrupt and spends its time talking and talking. While all of these organizations go about serving their best interests innocent men, women and children are losing their lives in the most horrible way possible. What are we the rest of the supposedly civilized world going to do about it? Sit around and talk. Do something
ReplyDeleteThank you for the opportunity to present my opinion. Fear and cowardice seem to drive modern war strategies. Lebanese Hezbollah is scared of engaging the well-armed Israeli army and therefore engages in terrorist activities and targets innocent civilians. Israeli army too is afraid of exposing its foot soldiers to the Hezbollah and favors air strikes and bombings of civilian targets. How large a civilian area is acceptable target for bombing? A building? A unit zip code? A city? Air-raids and bombings on civilian sites are becoming a common retaliatory strategy. However, loss of even a single civilian life cannot be justified, be it by terrorist bombing or by air raids. I therefore denounce both, Hezbollah acts of terror resulting in killing innocent civilians in Israel as well as Israeli air attacks on civilian sites leading to loss of innocent Lebanese lives. Modern war strategies have no room for courage and valor. It is a shame that the leaders have no vision and are incapable of bringing out the best in their soldiers. The soldiers no longer strike at an armed enemy, but at the innocent majority, hoping to alter public opinion.
ReplyDeleteAnand,
ReplyDeleteI am not going to argue any further and dont have any time to do so. I still stand my position on the matter. I'm unconvinced your vain justifications. Whether intentional or in process, civilian casualties can always be anticipated and easily avoided. Your view still one side of the matter and far from the truth.Since you are not open to see things from other side , all further arguments are in vain and waste my time and energy.Your justification is so easy for you say sitting in an easychair far away from crisis(A TRUTH FAR AWAY FROM REALITY). You will and never understand the situation there.I dont think the whole truth really or ever matters to you at all. Good Bye
I havent read all the things said here , though I will but while preparing to write on terrorism and insurgency in India for a book, I discovered that historically the Jews have never been the perpetuators of violence - at least not since the OT time but always the victims. What has catapaulted them in to the role of the perpetuators of violence is the sheer need to survive after centuries of persecution culminating in the holocast. Modern Israel's post 1948 struggle to survive and eliminate wny thing that even seems to come in the way needs to be seen in that light- Shantanu Dutta
ReplyDeleteJacob John, You have raised a crucial question, that of the impracticality of escaping the bombing. I agree that in such a scenario one cannot blame the civilians. I understand that leaflets which come only a few hours before bombing the area and much after the bridges are bombed, doesn't in any way help the civilians who would have wantd to leave. I would say that even before Israel bombed the bridges and roads it should have clearly warned the civilians about it intentions of bombing their towns to such an extent and then given them a good period as an ultimatum.
ReplyDeleteHannah, your are right about the UN. Now this is what is required- a monitor who KNOWS its job and DOES it. The situation in Lebanon wouldn't have reached this stage, had the UN Security Council done its best to promote the interests of Lebanon by diminishing Hezbollah’s hold over the slice of the country between the Litani River and the Israeli border as demanded by its earlier Resolution 1559, of September 2004. Resolution 1559 called for the disbanding of Hezbollah’s fighting force and the extension of Lebanese government control over the entire country. That resolution was largely ignored.
ReplyDeleteAfter four years and 34 days of warfare the latest resolution 1701, repeats the goals of 1559. Hope the UN security council will prove its credibility of being an able monitor, by IMPLEMENTING its own resolution this time. Just a cease fire is not what is required. In fact both the camps like the cease fire basically to regroup and take stock.
Shantanu, Looks like you have touched the nerve. I would like you to elaborate this aspect. It seems like after hearing about wars day-in and day-out, our human brains stop thinking about why somebody is behaving in a certain way.
ReplyDeleteUrbana.org WhirledView Blog: When to Cease Fire
ReplyDeletehttp://www.urbana.org/blogs/blog.main.whirledview.cfm?mode=entry&entry=1342C9CD-802B-2CC2-E6547B0779A1DBD8
You know some thing - the biggest numbers of Jews pre 1948 were in Europe and the natural place for the Jews to be have been politically settled was in Europe. The religious home land of the Jews might have been Jerusalem and its enviorns but back then the Zionist movement was secualr and was more concerned about a Jewish homeland thanits particular location. But then none of the European powers wanted to have any thing to do with the Jews- so they tossed out the hapless Palestinians who had been actually living there since Bibilical times and created the conflict. The Jews , who had already seen a systematic effort at genocide by the Nazis - and in fact by most anti semnitic regimes in Europe , naturally had their back to the wall and fought back and are continuing to do so - by legit means or illegit...The victim became the victimizer.
ReplyDeleteShantanu, since one cannot name ONE particular European nation where Jews could have politically settled (they couldn't have "politically" settled all over Europe) is a proof that they belonged somewhere else. I believe every tribe and race in this world has a place of origin especially evolving as a race. No tribe or races in this world suddenly came into being.
ReplyDeleteThe very fact that the Jews were not in one single place but in so many nations around the world, particularly the European nations, is the proof that they have evolved as a race much before their scattering happened.
Let’s NOT take the Jewish Holy Scriptures or the biblical accounts and still ask this logical and pertinent question? Didn’t Israelis belong somewhere in this world even before they became a nation state in 1948? If they did, where was it that they became a people significant enough to be identified and distinguished as a people?
Israeli history is much ancient than the European history where Israelis lived scattered for centuries. Their scattering started with the Assyrian invasion (722 B.C.), followed by Babylonian invasion (586 B.C.), Persian Invasion (480 B.C.) then followed the Greco-Roman (323 B.C.) rule.
Shantanu, I strongly believe that the Jewish/Arab problem is NOT simply a 'political' problem dealing just with a piece of land. The problem is much deeper than what is visible as political. Israel whose size is about 20,700 square kilometers is not even 1/3rd the size of Sri Lanka with a total area 65,610 square kilometers, (64,740 Sq Km Land area). You can imagine how small a nation it is in the world. Mind you this is the ONLY Jewish state in the world, unlike Islam, Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism that control multiple nations in the world.
Let me put is plainly. Annilihation of the Jews is a recent call by the Iranian President Ahmadinejad. Sincerely, do you think such a call can be given by a Head of a State for land issues? There are many similar issues around the world that cause wars and political diplomacy to sort those issues. What makes Ahmadinejad say such strong words which usually terrorists say? Just for your consideration.
Billy, none of us can condone Israeli policy of targeting civilians, nor am I. It looks like you are expecting a morally right/correct response from Israelis alone. All that Israelis are doing, is to ‘get down to the level of their enemies’ and not worse. I don’t think we can expect them to display a higher degree of morality than the Hezbollah, especially given the fact that they are usually the ones targeted first.
ReplyDeleteYou are right that with their high end technologies Israelis can minimize collateral damage and civilian casualties ‘if they choose to’. But this is what I have said in my earlier comment, that they are NOT MORE bothered than Hezbollah (or only as much bothered as Hezbollah is) regarding civilian casualties. On what basis can we tell Israelis that do not do more damage/civilian casualties than what Hezbollah does. As if Hezbollah is the scale/standard to measure Israeli retaliation. Hence we must not fault them alone especially when they are the ones at the receiving end.
And how has it helped India by maintaining its morality by not striking back at the terrorist camps across the border about which the Indian Govt. has always claimed it has proof. And how has it helped the US in carrying out “surgical” strikes to minimize civilian casualties in both Afghanistan and Iraq. The terrorist are still going strong there and US continues to lose so many of its soldiers.
Let’s not forget the fact that Israel is surrounded by giant nations, all of whom are its enemies. These nations are giants area-wise and population-wise, much of which is ready to lay down their lives for the ‘holy Jihad’. This Jihad becomes more holy to them when it is comes to Israel; MUCH HOLIER Jihad than one against US and its Christian allies.
Yes, when it comes to strength and technology, Israelis are giants. And it is this policy of Israeli govt. (of striking back with full force) that has earned them fearful respect in the sight of its enemies, enabling them to continue to exist.
Juliana, I am responding to you comment very late. Nevertheless I wanted to respond to it anyway. Basically I want you to distinguish between a national government and an independent outfit.
ReplyDeleteYou said, “Hizbollah is not a terrorist group. It's a political party whether you all of the above like it or not. They're Lebanese people, they have rights too. They work in our government. They have ministers in our Parliament. There is no way to consider Hizbollah as Taliban”.
Almost all terrorist organizations in the world have backing from some political party or the other. And invariably many have their people in the Government. If because of these an organization does not become a terrorist outfit, then there are no terrorist organizations in the world. (For your information, Taliban is also a very strong political party and earlier had its people in the Govt. and from 1996-2001 they WERE the Afghan Government)
And if the issue for the war was a Lebanese one, something that Lebanese govt. itself stood for, then why was Lebanese army missing in action when a foreign military invaded its territory, leave alone bombing its towns.
You said, “Hizbollah had weapons alright from Iran. So???? Why is it ok for Israel to have weapons from USA and not Hizbollah?????”
It is alright for Lebanese military to buy weapons but not any outfit which is not accountable or responsible to any international body. Whenever any nation sells/buys weapons to/from any other nation, it does it within a frame work with the understanding that any such a sale/purchase is being observed by the international community, and some aspects of the sale/purchase can questioned and they are answerable to the world bodies. And a national govt. will always comply with what the UN mandates. However, an organization that does not even recognize the international community can never be a responsible outfit; and weapons in the hands of any such outfit can be very dangerous because they act unilaterally at their whims and fancies.
Just to clarify my point: Take Al-Qaeda, a Sunni Islamist organization. The most prominent members of the group are adherents of Salafism, a fundamentalist sect of Sunni Islam, just as Hezbollaz is a Shi’iet one. Now if Al-Qaeda is prominent in a particular nation (Afghanistan) should it be allowed to procure weapons and fight a war? Haven't they proved themselves to be a terror outfit than a responsible organization.
Remember, UN Security Council Resolution 1559, of September 2004 called for the disbanding of Hezbollah’s fighting force and the extension of Lebanese government control over the entire country. That resolution was largely ignored.
US probes Israel cluster bomb use
ReplyDeleteThe US State Department has launched an inquiry into whether Israel misused US-made cluster bombs in Lebanon during the recent conflict.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5286352.stm
fearful respect, my foot.Thats nothing bu machistic jargon.. most nations feel Horror and disgust for the policy of massacring civilians. Even many Israelis feel it that way. Open your eyes. Anand
ReplyDeletePrecisely, Horror is what I meant when I said fearful respect. I didn't mean respect that comes out of 'reverence'. Arab nations openly confess to Israel's military might and think twice before attacking. Just last week Hassan Nasrullah himself confessed to an Arab TV channel that if he had any clue to such a strong response from Israel to the kidnappings, he wouldn't have done the kidnappings. This is exactly what I meant.
ReplyDeleteBilly you once said, "It is INHUMAN and CRUELLY NAIVE to suggest that if a thousands or so war-weary and helpless civilians still decide to stay put, they are COMMITTING PLAIN SUICIDE or they are BACKING Hezebollah. EASY FOR YOU SAY SO SIMPLISTICALLY because YOU ARE FAR REMOVED FROM GROUND REALITIES THERE. I DONT THINK YOU CAN UNDERSTAND OR FEEL THE PREDICAMENT AND SUFFERING OF THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS WHO ARE CAUGHT IN MIDDLE OF CONFLICT...."
Billy, do you sincerely believe that there ever has been a race in this world which has ALWAYS faced wars and fought for their very survival throughout history, as Israel. What is Lebanon's war weariness? No one race/nation will ever come closer to even 1% of Israel's experience. Aren't we far removed from the ground realities of Israel too? It will take one to be an Israeli to actually understand their predicament. That will help one to understand why they react the way they do.
And what way do you expect Israel to react to any overtures even as simple as kidnapping when the source 'openly' behind it is a nation which has just vowed to wipe it off from the map. This coming from the head of a state; can you beat that? No word of course about the Arabs, targeting Israeli citizen's month after month, year after year.
Billy, when are you going to demand they act like men and start making war in the warfront instead of cowards behind women’s skirts and children's toys? When will they stop bombing the embassies, trains, buses, crowded markets and crashing planes in to buildings as faceless cowards? Are these not civilian casualties?
If they would have fought in the warfront, there wouldn’t have been civilian casualties. I understand there is enough uninhabited land between Israel and Lebanon for a face off, without affecting the civilians.
DEAD ARE MY PEOPLE
ReplyDeleteDead Are My People - by Gibran Khalil Gibran 1883 - 1931 (Lebanese Poet)
Written in exile during the famine Lebanon in world war I
My people died on the cross....
They died while their hands
stretched toward the East and West,
While the remnants of their eyes
Stared at the blackness of the
Firmament...They died silently,
For humanity had closed its ears
To their cry. They died because
They died because
They placed trust in all humanity.
They died because they did not
Oppress the oppressors. They died
Because they were the crushed
Flowers, and not the crushing feet.
They died because they were peace
Makers. They perished from hunger
In a land rich with milk and honey.
They died because monsters of
Hell arose and destroyed all that
Their fields grew, and devoured the
Last provisions in their bins....
They died because the vipers and
Sons of vipers spat out poison into
The space where the Holy Cedars and
The roses and the jasmine breathe
Their fragrance.